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  1. [ZX81]
  2. Call of Duty Modern Warfare (COD4)
  3. Saturday, 09 May 2020
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H All,

I know I'm not the flavour of the century or never well be but why after all the years of OGHF CoD4 servers been running the rules,that have a been in place for years, are suddenly being enforced to the point where some maps are unplayable for snipers, am looking at you crossfire, you cant even snipe from the building the marines spawn in from the start, just using sniping as an example.

Even when you do move from spawn it's not far enough for some admins and constantly mentioning to players to keep moving, almost as if we are their puppets to do their bidding, even some of the OGHF members have commented that the rules are almost impossible to enforce and wish some of the committee members would join a game to see how hard it is to enforce the rules to the letter, the one rule that says "spawn camping" i like many others always assumed it was camping the enemy the spawn NOT camping your own spawn.

IMHO it will slowly ruin the server by driving players away whereas before the rules were quite relaxed and just let the game flow as it as from day one on many servers, yes i know it's YOUR server and you pay the bills and we are just your guests, know it's a fine juggling act to get the balance right for the rules but it seemed fine to me and many other regular players the way it was, maybe installing a "spawn damage reflect mod" would deter the spawn campers and let the game flow naturally.

IF you want players to play the way you want them too play why not just install BOTS, so i ask again what as recently changed, behind the scenes perhaps, to enforce the rules ?

Thanks for reading.

(edited for paragraphs)
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TubeSlayer
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Hi ZX81. Thank you for your feed back. Well I wonder where i have heard these words before. "wish some of the committee members would join a game to see how hard it is to enforce the rules to the letter" :D I've had it a few times this week.

I played on the server late on Tuesday evening. And again quite a bit on Wednesday evening. I saw few issues. And today I've played, Again saw only a few issues. Many the ones we are trying to stop, which is the point But on the whole, it all went well. The Admins that were on those nights did a great job. Maybe I was just lucky.


A few facts. Number one. No rules have been changed "at all" We have never allowed spawn Killing or spawn camping. Fact number two. Over the last 6 or so months, the number of complaints we have had by good fun loving regulars have rocketed. And we were in danger of losing them. And so we read the chat logs and they were full of complaints for all of us to see. Because of spawn camping and spawn killing. And we were accused of not doing anything about it. Which I might add was both unfair and untrue. But something must have been amiss to get the increase in complaints.

The trial has only been in play one week and yet I believe you said yourself ".been fine for years until the last few months/weeks" Well that's the problem things were changing for the worse and we had to address it.

I was asked to look into this, And I saw its usually the same players doing the spawn camping and spawn killing. We here are a tolerate clan, and we give 3 warnings always to those that break the rules, sometimes a lot more than 3 warnings. But certain people just don't listen. And the feedback I got was, we need to act quickly in dealing with certain "Persistent rule breakers". Just kick them I heard. . Well that we can't just do. But we introduced procedures that fitted our remit and dealt with offenders quickly as a lot of damage can be done if we don't act quicker. And that is purely and simply the only changes that has been made. A quicker way to deal with "Persistent " rule breakers, in getting them out of the spawn. And also stopping spawn rushers and spawn killers, killing in the spawn.
Admins won't or at least shouldn't warn you if you are sniping outside the spawn, Hopefully you can see the problem. You spawn, move 3 paces and start sniping. You are going to draw attention to yourself in the spawn and poor players that have just spawned 3 paces away will kop it. So there you go. That's it. No rule change, just a different approach to making sure the rules are adhered to.

So this trial was initiated for a week by "myself" On agreement with our Council. And it has been increased to a second week to get a better feel as it was deemed we are getting somewhere.
The TDM Head Admin AWOL is monitoring it, and can stop it when ever he wishes, if things go bad with the trial.. A massive thank you to him and his team in helping trial it in very difficult circumstances. We have some really good patent Admins doing this trial for us. Sometimes we get it wrong, but most of the time we get it right.

The damage reflection option seems to be what most want.

I say this to everyone that PMs me. We are a primary fun server. Not a promod win at all cost ultra competitive server. They are out there if that's what floats your boat, But we try to be a fun for all server. For Young, Old, Good, not so good. And we need to try and remind people of that.

Also. This is just a trial. Once the trial ends, it will discussed as to if it was a success. And maybe decisions made for the future. Tweaks here and there may be made. But our main aim is to make it as fun for all as possible. Not just the very good rushers and snipers. All.
One other thing. Our cod4 TDM server during the trial is still busy, and this week moved back into the number one spot for cod4 servers in the UK. An amazing job awol and his team have done, on top of dealing with this trial as well..

But your compliant has been noted ZX, and will be talked about when we chat about the trial when it has ended.

Thanks for reading

Cheers Tube

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Hi Tube,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

My quote "been fine for years until the last few months/weeks" is about the way the rules are now enforced not the way the server had gone down, maybe didn't make myself clear in the in-game ramblings.

To some of the new comers to the servers it's hard for them to get to grips with no bunny hopping, let alone the spawn camping one, again they would assume its camping the enemies spawn.

Not trying to rock the boat or cause arguments, just wanted to know why and your reply does explain it quite well.

Thanks
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Have you read this thread ZX81 - New spawn rules?

I only ask because you may have missed it (it's in the complaints sub-forum) and there has been a lot of discussion about this already.

You raise a good point regarding sniping and spawns which I had been thinking about myself. Crossfire is the best example, where the natural sniper points are where people spawn (particularly at the top end of the map. I can't think of a way that you can address the two requirements of allowing sniping where it is a natural spot and not camping in spawn. You could say that snipers can camp in spawn but I see two issues with that, one TubeSlayer has already mentioned, it encourages other people to camp in spawn.

The other is an example from my own experience. On Oukhta there is a spot people frequently snipe from at the bottom end of the map in the garages between the buildings. I could see the muzzle flash and on UAV there was a non-moving red dot. I threw a nade in and killed the sniper but also killed Spawnee as he was spawning (how appropriate!). He commented "not like you to nade the spawn Trash" so I explained that I was targetting a sniper. Fortunately Frenchie confirmed he was the person sniping from that spot. In reality, both I and Frenchie broke the rules, I (unintentionally) spawn killed and Frenchie was camping in spawn. There was no way I could get line of sight to shoot him. The same would apply to airstrikes, ideally you shouldn't place them on spawns but if the spawns are full of camping snipers then why should they not be fair targets? If you allowed snipers to stay in spawn then they would get additional protection that wasn't available to anybody else on top of the advantages that camping already gives a player.

More generally, in the other thread, I expressed the opinion that I thought it would take too much admin effort to get people to change their ways and move out of spawn. Awol and the other admins will know better but my feeling is that it does seem to be meeting with a degree of success and the amount of admin effort seems to be decreasing (although still required). I have also noticed some of the admins becoming more active and spending time in spec. I appreciate their effort and realise that they all primarily want to game not admin. However, if you want this change to succeed I think there will always be a need for some admin enforcement going forward, particularly on some maps.

Personally, I am still trying to find a bit of balance regarding where I can justifiably nade or drop an airstrike but generally I am finding the games more enjoyable and 'open' with more movement opening new challenges and opportunities. I have noticed a few more people more people using smoke to create cover to move. Generally I think it is better but that is just my opinion and may be just because it suits what I enjoy in the game, which isn't primarily about getting a great score, but having a good battle.

I think part of the problem is that players get settled in their ways and start playing a particular map in a particular way all the time rather than trying something new, which can be frustrating at first but opens up new enjoyments in the long term. I sometimes think that some people would not need 'new maps' all the time if they thought about playing existing maps in new ways rather than sticking to a tried and tested pattern. With regards to that, I know autoassign has been discussed in the past and there was a suggestion that it may be enforced on the COD 4 servers. Was any final decision made about this?

The damage reflection option seems to be what most want.

I'm a little concerned about this. I agree with Orion that this will be unfairly detrimental to 'rushers'.

I have been accused of being both a camper and a rusher! I personally think my playing style is somewhere between those two and it actually varies depending on the map. I only say this because I would never put myself in the camp of what I see as the true rushers so I hope my comments won't be seen as self interest. The sort of players I'm thinking of are people like Fibre and Chan. I think what they do is really hard and if you look at their scores, whilst their kills may be very high, they are often matched (or even exceeded) by their deaths. Yes they may sometimes spawnkill but I very much doubt it is deliberate, if you are trying to survive while moving through an enemy camp you just concentrate on shooting anything that moves. You are by definition outnumbered and it is difficult to survive long. They are targetting areas that have high numbers of players, they aren't targeting spawns, it just so happens that by the nature of COD that this is where spawns also occur, either because people haven't moved away from the spawn or the spawn has move to where the most players are.

Even with the current spawn protection I have been in situations where someone has come around a corner after just spawning and although I may have shot them first, they still kill me because the spawn protection has prevented me from killing them. If you use damage reflection then I believe it will become almost impossible for the true rushers and I enjoy having their different game style as part of the game, even if I'm frustrated when I'm on the receiving end of it! Probably the best spawn protection I have come across is one where it lasted longer but ended as soon as the spawning player started firing. Personally this seems a better balance to me.
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I also agree with ZX81, calling it 'spawn camping' is very confusing. I think the rule and the way people refer to it should be changed to 'camping in spawn'.
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Guess on reflection,excuse the pun, and what TC as said, damage reflect might be a bad idea after all.

There will always been be spawn killing no matter what happens, same with all FPS games to a certain degree i guess, as it's also been said countless times before it's trying to find a happy medium to have a fun fair game for all, that's where problems occur.

Yes there are certain players that do target spawn every round and are dealt with accordingly by the admins, there are other times when too much admin involvement can ruin the flow of the game for many but that is few and far between.

Thanks again for reading and will see what happens going forward :)
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aims
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Yes on crossfire the best place to snipe is in the spawn, not fair on the other team as you then have an advantage and the team cannot also move. It ends up either team camping in their spawn and also a very boring game. Why not move out the spawn and snip behind a car etc?

I am with TC on this one. The games are better when there is flow and I see smoke being used a lot more.
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Orion
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I agree with a lot of what has been said as fact.

There are a few things that I disagree with and, for the most part I have voiced my thoughts, concerns and opinions.

1. Spawn reflect is a bad idea. Invulnerability and inability of the spawnee to do damage for a period of time is a better option.
2. Camping in spawn on TDM should be allowed - especially if invulnerability is in place. Camping in spawn really ought to be an FFA only rule.
3. We cannot use the "admins must exercise common sense and judgement" for rules like this. My judgement on these rules is going to be completely different to...other admins.
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257BEE
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I will throw a monkey wrench it all the Spawn talk. Disable UAV for a spell and see how that changes things? UAV is responsible for showing the players where the spawn point is, throwing nades into the spawn, airstrikes into the spawn and so on. I may be off here but it's something I have thought about a bunch of late with all the spawn camping and killing talk. Opinions???
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Noooooo. If you turn the UAV off then it will make people even less likely to move.

I know I will often hunker down when we have no UAV especially if I'm not sure where the enemy are. Also, UAV shows where most players are, not where the spawn is. If most players are sitting in the spawn area then they deserve to die :p
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257BEE
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I have heard "don't throw nades into spawn" if UAV is showing several dots, that's where I throw the nade, point of the game I think. I got called out today for killing someone 3 times in a row after he left the spawn, knew where I was camping and no, I couldn't see the spawn but he was cooking a nade for me each time but I shot him first. He said it was "close" to being a spawn kill but he came right after 3 times. I don't know the answer but there is a lot of grumbling anymore. Also, with the numbers on a small map spawn kills are going to happen at times, just need to limit how often it happens.If there is an obvious spawn camper they need to be addressed but I don't think we have a huge problem. I think several are over analyzing everything and there are more players on each map too since this crazy world pandemic. Hopefully we can just get along and enjoy the game for what it's worth, It relaxes me. A cheater/hacker, different story all together. Cheers
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Orion
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...but he was cooking a nade for me each time but I shot him first


If he was cooking a grenade then he was engaging you...therefore fair game.
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257BEE
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If he was cooking a grenade then he was engaging you...therefore fair game.

That was my point to him also. I sometimes get fixated on killing someone who has picked me off several times in a row. If I don't change my strategy I get it a few more times but I don't complain. I just hope that most can use this game as a form of entertainment and fun. I like to be serious and I like a good score but I like friendships, smiles, and relaxation even more. The rules are pretty straight forward and mistakes will be made. Enforce what we have the best we can and have fun!! Game on Brothers, Sisters and Kitty's :)
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TubeSlayer
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:D
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RedsKills
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I have been "off the grid" for a while and therefor missed quite a lot of "action", gamewise aswel as on the forum.
In my opinion nothing did change, other then, we recruited some new admins, and they do a great job.:)
Maybe they take some time getting used to their new role, but still.

The thing with spawn(protect) is, when some-one sits in or near a spawn, it's not a spawn anymore. (at least in FFA-server.)
But if you sit across one and you wait for protection to wear off (3secs) you're good to go and get away with it, as bot no longer sees you as spawnee, so no spawnkill, according to bot!
However, if you're spotted doing so and get busted by admin, you get a warn and IMHO rightfully so! :o

On our TDM server, it is another issue, that the entire team spawn in the same spot and when pinned down cannot get out at all.
Some believe this to be a tactic, some say it's spawnkilling. :(
I think that when you pin down or corner an entire team, that's a tactic. But you have to give them a fighting chance..

One of my Favorit things to use on FFA as an admin is the phrase,screaming; SPAWN-MOVE-KILL-DIE! :D
And i mean exactly that!.. you spawn, get out, kill some and get shot... over and over and over etc,etc.

In the end it al boils down to it being menswork and being human.. and some days are better then others..;)

My two bits..;) Rob.
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Orion
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Redskills - thats another great post and we are on the same wavelength. We need to add that to Trashcans post about it all.

I really hope that we can nail this down so it remains fun for everyone including admins. The recognition that TDM is different to FFA and many of the rules require a bit of common sense applied to them is a start...

Was going to say something here but I will pm AWOL when I get a moment...(if I forget, can AWOL remind me :p)

The whole getting pinned down in spawn I have done to death, but Redskills has identified the problem being with the defending team...and I will reiterate that when it happens to me I am on at the team to get out of spawn!
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It's such a shame people won't use smoke and move. Just had a round of Strike. It's always a bit of a difficult start for Opfor but if the team moves quickly its not hard to break out. Instead the whole team just stayed in spawn...for the entire 15 minutes

...they got slaughtered...I got a great score with high K/D.........and it was dull, dull, dull :(
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Wildcat
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I hate the smoke lol need another poll to ban it hehe:p
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aims
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I think getting the team to move out from the start is key, otherwise you get pinned down and as TC has stated slaughtered. Certainly from the original spawn point at least, I just don't get the ones who move two feet place a clay and aim at the other spawn. I played one of the new maps today for about the third time. The first time the team stayed in the building that they spawned in and although I and others were mobile, the campers stayed, we could not progress and got slaughtered just as TC said. I played the same map tonight and we hammered the other side as they camped in spawn. There were repeated calls for them to move but they never listened. Maybe I should of intervened but I wasn't the only admin there.
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Awol
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This is the biggest bug bear, players camping in their own spawn and it ruins the game for everyone. If we sort that out then everything else should hopefully fall into place. Admins don't want to be in spectate all the time, what's the fun in that. And as you rightly say Aims if there are multiple admins on then why is it that only a few are actually giving warnings etc.

Going forward guys if you can pm me the most persistent offenders and I'll check the amount of warnings they have received in echelon. If warranted I'll then start handing out temp bans. Hopefully they will then come to the home page and question why they can't get on the server and I will happily tell them.

Cheers

Awol
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I have a question, while playing on overgrown I was behind a table downstairs in the middle house going up from the garage, opposing team were spawning in the smaller house in front, as they moved into the corridor I was shooting them, is this classed as spawn kill as they were already running out and they could have left from the door in the room where they spawned where I wouldn’t have seen them from where I were? I think of spawn killing Is when folk literally spawn and you shoot them which of course is wrong. If I see somebody moving and they waggle their gun at me then obviously I will shoot even if they are in the spawn area, I myself have killed folk as I were spawning coz I saw them in front of me.

From a confused Dodo
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